Embodying Creativity in the Arts with Brian Kai Chin

In this episode of the Becoming mBODYed podcast, host Shawn L Copeland, along with guests Karen Cubides and Brian Kai Chin, delve into the intersection of music education, creativity, and the importance of belonging. They explore Brian's unique journey in academia, the systemic issues within music training, and the transformative power of the Alexander Technique. The conversation emphasizes the need for a safe and supportive environment in arts education to foster individuality and authentic artistic expression. In this conversation, Shawn L Copeland and Karen Cubides explore the transformative potential of integrating anatomical knowledge into music education. They discuss the evolution of teaching methods, the impact of trauma on performance, and the importance of recognizing each musician's unique physicality to prevent injuries. The dialogue emphasizes the shift from transactional to transformative learning, highlighting the need for a holistic approach that fosters belonging and embodiment in the arts.

Becoming mBODYed is a production of and copyrighted by mBODYed, LLC, 2024. www.mbodyed.com
Follow me at https://www.instagram.com/mbodyed/ and https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61566020594221
The intro and exit music is Dark Matter by Carlos Velez, recorded by Tosca Duo on their CD Dimensions.
A link to Carlos’s music is available at
https://composercarlosvelez.wixsite.com/carlosvelezmusic/about-me.

Transcript

Shawn L Copeland (00:03.798)
 Welcome to the Becoming mBODYed podcast, where we explore how safety and belonging cultivate embodied creativity, curiosity, and authenticity. I am your host, Shawn Copeland, the founder and CEO of Embodied, a program dedicated to embodied education in the performing arts. Karen Cubidis, founder and CEO of the Karen Cubides Agency, is back with us today, and we are joined today by my friend and colleague, Brian Kai Chin, director of the School of Music at the University of Houston.
 
 Thank you so much for joining us today, Brian. This is really a joy for you to be the first guest on our podcast. Aw, that's sweet. Thanks for having me. And I'm excited to have this conversation with you. I'm excited to see where we go with it. This will be fun. Yeah. This will be fun. Why don't, hi, Karen.
 
 Karen Cubides (00:48.379)
 Yeah.
 
 Hi, I'm so excited to be here. And yeah, thank you, Shawn, and thank you, Brian, for making the time. We know you're super busy. I feel like we're all just so curious to know more about you, Brian. So tell us your story.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (01:05.08)
 So I am the director of the School of Music at the University of Houston. I've been here a year now and I think my journey to this place is unusual for a bunch of different reasons. I did not go into academia with the intention of...
 
 of actually being a director or in leadership at all, I kind of went into it with the ability to create, to bring along as many students as I could with me in that process. I think I'm here, you know, I've moved from the professor ranks to this kind of position in leadership because I started to realize that I was working with students for a very long time on a one-on-one basis as a trumpet player and someone who is teaching one-on-one lessons.
 
 And I started doing everything I could to be able to help them in the various ways that they were learning. And of course, as I was talking with Sean last night over dinner, everyone who teaches private lessons realizes that 80 % I'm making the number up, of course, 80 % of what we do is really therapy in a one on one situation.
 
 And, but I realized that the vehicle for that conversation of human growth is really music and the study of the instrument and the repertoire. I started then teaching more in the classroom and I started to see what I could do to bring as many of those components into the larger classroom as well. So then I was working with say groups of 30 or 40.
 
 I later became the director of the school of the previous institution. And then I was essentially had a hundred students that I'm working with. And then as a director there, I was able to impact a lot of what we were doing in various ways through either curricular redesign or just messaging to students of what it is we're trying to accomplish. And then now at this school, there's 500 students. And so in many ways, I feel like I'm trying to take that
 
 Shawn L Copeland (03:15.328)
 the kind of ethos of what we're able to accomplish in a one-on-one situation and apply that to the overall student experience and what it means to be a musician in the 21st century, what it means to be studying to become a musician, a professional in the 21st century. I think a lot of what we do, and this is jumping beyond me, it's just my story, but it's like a lot of what we do ends up...
 
 messaging things that we don't actually intend to. I think these are systemic problems in our field and our discipline and I'm working to actively change those things.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (04:00.534)
 I could talk more about me, but I don't know if that's relevant to the conversation. I guess I will say I never intended to be an academia at all, actually. I finished my master's degree, I want a job with the Tacoma Symphony Orchestra. I moved to Seattle and I was freelancing with the symphony and the ballet and whatnot out there. Doing that just fine for a long time and had a studio and things were working.
 
 I awoke to my original reason why I became a musician and that was to create. It was to be a part of that process, to be able to move forward with this, to be able to say something with the music that we're creating. And I think that that is what jolted me out of the traditional musicianship grind, or I should say the traditional way to make a living in music. And I realized I needed to find my own
 
 way there. So academia became a natural fit for me that in that way because I acknowledge that as any artist we can't do it by ourselves and this is a place where I can essentially build that build that group of folks who who can carry the torch with me.
 
 Karen Cubides (05:19.003)
 I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. How do you know Sean? What's the story there?
 
 Shawn L Copeland (05:23.512)
 That's a great, see, Sean, you could help us. We can't remember how we met. We can't remember. We were talking about this last night. back a ways, but not that long. Actually, probably only like 10 years or so, but it had something to do with the fact that I was searching actively for an Alexander teacher to bring into the school. I was first introduced to Alexander Technique in general by a faculty member who was kind of into it and was...
 
 teaching it, but really kind of not. But anyway, it was my first exposure to that and it really helped me as an individual, as a musician and just as a trumpet player. Like completely changed my entire experience. I would not have been able to progress had I not had that experience. And in retrospect, it was pretty shoddy Alexander, but you know what? It did what it needed to do for me. I bumped into Alexander Technique several times throughout my school years.
 
 There's a woman who works a lot with the Juilliard School and was out at Aspen. And so I studied with her that summer. I then later, moving to Seattle like years later, started seeking out teachers and I found a few in town, but no one that could really translate into the music world. Somewhere along the way, I discovered that Sean is an Alexander teacher and a musician and
 
 happened to be in my hometown of Moscow, Idaho, where I grew up as a clarinet professor there. So somehow in that intersection we connected and we really got to know each other when I'd hire him to come in and do classes with our students. And then we kind of evolved from there in myriad conversations. This was also about the time that you were forming Common Tone. That's right. Which is his non-profit music.
 
 I don't know, it's evolved into something so much bigger than I think what you started with. It really has. And without digressing too much, it's an organization really focusing on transforming lives, artistic lives, artists' lives through the process of creating.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (07:39.54)
 And there's a huge intersection between what this work is and what that nonprofit is hoping to do. And that is to inspire folks to create.
 
 Karen Cubides (07:49.115)
 That's amazing. Any thoughts,
 
 Shawn L Copeland (07:55.288)
 We were trying to kind of track it last night and try and understand how I was. I had just started coming to Seattle at the time that I met Brian and was spending more and more time in Seattle around this time. This was all maybe 18 months, two years before COVID. And then. Through all of that, our relationship kind of continued to intersect.
 
 continued to grow. I was at one point in time, I was even part of Common Tone in terms of just because of nonprofit background. But that was also at a time when I was not able to really dive in as much as I wanted to. It was great to say yes to you and then things didn't work out that way. But then our work continued to evolve together. And what Brian hasn't mentioned so far,
 
 is his main direction right now is on this belonging piece. And our conversation, our work together, our creative impetus between, you and our friendship and our work together has been around bringing this belonging piece into arts education and the importance of belonging. And
 
 really seeing that that's a missing piece in creative education and all around. If we're talking about music school, opera, all of that, but also in dance and theater, it's a missing element. it's, know, Karen, you and I've talked about this, you know, this is my, you know, probably single most passion is around safety and belonging.
 
 It's the direction that we're headed. It's the direction that's needed in arts education. And Brian's work here has been kind of centered around that. I think so. I mean, I think if you were to boil down everything I'm trying to do, it really comes down to that central concept of belonging. And then it's
 
 Shawn L Copeland (10:16.818)
 its intersection with who we are as humans, therefore our ability to create original work that's authentic. And I think that that is the, I think that that is the component that is missed in our intentionality, connecting our intentionality with our execution in higher education. So I would say.
 
 Karen Cubides (10:30.075)
 you
 
 Shawn L Copeland (10:42.902)
 I mean, everybody here in higher ed or in any school, any teacher wants the best for their students. want they want to empower them to be able to be great humans and succeed at what they do. But I think if you really were honest about the connection between that intention and the execution and maybe actually being honest about the intention itself in terms of what they're really wanting for their students, I think that we're missing the mark by a mile.
 
 My experience, I suppose, has kind of led me to adopt these things, but it's like I've observed that essentially our music programs are not artistic programs. In the visual arts, they're always asking, what are you trying to say? What are you trying to say? then they're talking about how you can execute those things, right? I don't think that's ever asked in music, very rarely.
 
 You know, what are you trying to say with this phrase, maybe, but for the most part, it's in learning music school, in music school, they're really training you to be a great technician and to be fully well versed in the repertoire. In a nutshell, the conservatory training is essentially trying to create a robot, a cog in the wheel, an interchangeable piece, a little widget, right?
 
 They crank out these widgets that can go win auditions and go sit into any orchestra in the world. And it's generally true that you can plop one into another and they would be totally fine. There's very little, I mean, there are regional styles and particular aspects of that, but really you're training musicians to essentially be clones of themselves. Good clones and great, right? But.
 
 To me, the component of that's missing in there is that we as artists are so much more than just that. There's an aspect of that. We need great technique. We need to understand the repertoire to understand where we're going. However, I would argue pretty firmly that our music schools in general do not train or prepare or message students to become individual creators themselves.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (13:02.946)
 To me, the difference between what makes an artist an artist is really when you can identify a unique sound that is connected to that individual. And if you think of your favorite artists from the past of any type, right, they all have this really strong, unique thing, whether it's Beethoven or Duke Ellington or Madonna or whatever. They all have their like...
 
 Johnny Cash or they it's like, you know them the second you hear them and what makes that unique. They have a oftentimes weird, strange voice. They have something to say with that that is that is unique to them. And that's kind of what in my mind defines an artist. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have to have, you know, a different sound on the trumpet or clarinet or anything. But it's that what what are you trying to say with that voice? Right. The connection there.
 
 that I think is missing is that until we as music schools can create that sense of safety, that can create that sense of belonging for the individual within the larger community, we're gonna continue to get robots. Everything we do messages that here's what it means to be, you know, this is what's valued, this is what's accepted, right? And that you see that at the audition level,
 
 Here's repertoire that matters. Here's the jury that you have to pass under these criteria. And here are the boxes to check. Therefore, you're going to pop out the other end. What? mean, able to do that, I suppose. So to me, what that does is just kind of, it tends to send the message that any individuality that you have as a performer, as a musician needs to be like squashed out.
 
 first and then maybe someday you can decide to put a little back in. But that I think is the messaging that we musicians pick up from day one, that your voice is invalid. It's shaming. I was just talking about this upstairs this morning. never thought about it that way. Yeah, it's total shame. It's total shame. I was just talking about this upstairs this morning in a lesson. Long story short, that
 
 Shawn L Copeland (15:22.762)
 we have to cultivate the artistry from the very beginning in the work. The analogy that I was using was the artistry is not the seasoning that you add at the end. It's the seasoning that you add at the beginning. If you don't salt the water in pasta or potatoes, you'll never get it to taste right. It has to be there from the beginning.
 
 It were it this was an hour long lesson. So, you know, you're getting the very tail end of it. But that, you know, to your point, I think that there's that there's a huge discrepancy between what we what we think we're doing, what we say we're doing and what we're actually doing. And, you know, we are we're automatons, you know, instead of training artists and. The the.
 
 Authenticity the creativity all of those things are being Squashed beat out of us shamed Because we're told from the very beginning well though, you know, this is how this is supposed to sound Learn the rules first before you then develop your own voice and that's a that's kind of a theme that we've been talking about on this podcast about
 
 you know, before you can be a creative voice out there, you must recognize that your own unique perspective is valued, has value, and is worth hearing. And you have to know that before you can advocate for that to be heard in the world. Which is that whole internal belonging piece first, that
 
 cultivation of internal safety, internal belonging, internal value and worthiness and enoughness before then you can have, before then you can have. Well done, Sean. Before you can then.
 
 Karen Cubides (17:30.425)
 you
 
 Shawn L Copeland (17:35.902)
 have those things valued in relationship to others. Did that make sense? I feel like I said that completely backwards.
 
 Karen Cubides (17:43.087)
 Yeah, I mean, no, both of you sound brilliant. And I want to go back to, to Brian first, because I mean, I feel like everything you're saying is amazing. You know, Mike drop, could end the podcast here, but I'm curious, especially because you've experienced what most of us have as far as Alexander technique or body mapping or any of these extra additional modalities in that, like some are great. Some not so much. This definitely helped me, but also like, eh, with your perspective and
 
 the way you're seeing things. How did you get from that being your personal experience to bringing your entire school of music into this embodied moment with all the amazing red tape and hoops in academia?
 
 Shawn L Copeland (18:25.336)
 I'm gonna have to leave the room for this conversation. A little triggering.
 
 Karen Cubides (18:27.131)
 Hahahaha
 
 Shawn L Copeland (18:34.936)
 Okay, so I think I may be coming to this conversation from a different angle than Sean's experience. I'm actually coming at this conversation from that, maybe here's the connection, right? From that original moment where I realized why I went into music in the first place, right? And I essentially created the nonprofit around that concept. I went into academia around that concept, which is,
 
 wait a minute, I'm an artist, to be fully engaged, like I want to be not just performing, but I want to be active in the creative process. That's part commission, that's a part like, I have a voice here in composition. I never went to composition school. I've had a few mentors, but I've never taken lessons. So we trained musicians over here with doctorates, we'll often shy away from all that because we're not.
 
 qualified or certified, right? And so I'm just, I started to challenge myself in these areas of what it means to be a complete musician. And I think one of the things that I realized and continually realizing is that on the road to becoming that complete musician is the need to become a great human. And that means you have to love and accept who we are. We have to be able to
 
 be vulnerable enough to take these chances of stepping out and actually making things. The world of critique is everywhere, right? People judge everything we do. And if my whole self-ego is based upon the validation from others, then it won't be very long before I stop making anything. How many of us were messaged in kindergarten that, you're not creative or something?
 
 those little words can just be devastating to someone. And I see that across humanity. Like all of our communities and all the silos, not just in music, but I see it everywhere, right? And so I just think that when it really comes down to it, creating is a birthright. Like we don't need permission. We're born with this and it manifests in one of a billion different ways, but humans are innately creative.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (20:56.652)
 whether it's like figuring out better farming techniques or building buildings or whatever, destroying the world. And we're very good at this. And so like, but we're constantly creating things in our lives, our communities. And I just happened to have adapted the philosophy of the arts and the music as a way to transform our experience as humans. I just, whenever I see at this point, I guess,
 
 When I woke to this, I realized how many of my musician colleagues and friends were also just kind of going through just, you know, trying to meet the expectations that were taught to them in high school of check these boxes sound really good, every note in tune, never miss, you know, all those things. And to me, it was missing a little bit of the joy, the fulfillment I know they could add to their lives in terms of
 
 messaging their individual artistic voice. All of that's impossible to have without the sense of belonging as an individual to a group and not just fitting in. To me, that's the difference, right? So fitting in is adhering to other expectations, whether they're written or not, usually not, right? So a message to...
 
 It's like when I ask a student, what kind of music you listen to and they go, Mendelsohn and, you know, they like, they're all to say, I'm like, just tell me what you know, what do you want? Is it Carrie Perry? Whatever. Like, it's like, it's, there's like looking for the right answer, right. And so I think we just kind of end up getting into that mindset for everything we do and until we can really feel safe enough to be like, you actually care that my first language is in English and that's
 
 Karen Cubides (22:23.077)
 You
 
 Shawn L Copeland (22:48.044)
 whatever, to be able to be valued and seen and missed when you're not there and you and all your weirdness and whatnot is what makes this community better. And until that happens, I don't think we can get to the point where we can even really fully talk about what it means to create. So what is the role that Alexander Technique plays in that?
 
 Shawn L Copeland (23:18.34)
 I don't know, Okay, so here's what it It goes into this concept of embodiment, right? Okay, this going to get dorky for a second, or probably has been since the whole time. So in Spanish, the verb to play an instrument is tocar, which is to touch.
 
 And think about how different that is from like this idea of I play an instrument, I operate it from like the outside, right? And I manipulate this instrument versus to integrate as it would be like with my human voice, my trumpet. And that's a very different approach to instrumental music anyway. That we were taught that this is something that is external from us and we just kind of operate the thing.
 
 And the closer we get to mastery, the more that can become integrated with us in a way that connects our brain directly through to the instrument. So I think that one of the beautiful things about the Alexander technique is that it shows us that our instrument is actually us and that this integration of what other components are there are a part of the larger idea of what it means to be an individual.
 
 that emphasis on self and awareness, it's really awareness, right? Awareness and presence is not just valuable for the physicality, but I think that it helps train the mental perceptions of awareness of self in every situation, but specifically your ability to embody yourself and feel comfortable in yourself and be able to
 
 to have the awareness of yourself that is actually the basis of this concept of belonging, as opposed to being kind of that robot, right? We're a little bit removed, you're going through the motions, I'm not fully present. I fit in, but I'm not necessarily 100 % me, uncomfortable in my skin right there, right now.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (25:45.976)
 Do you see it that way? I've never had to articulate that and I don't live it the way you do, Well, it's speaking to what I often say that Alexander Technique is teaching us that we belong to ourselves. that's a better way of saying it. It's not a better way of saying it. It's clear. Actually, what does that mean, though, when you say you belong to yourself? In a literal way, it means like my leg is mine.
 
 It's attached to you. It's attached to me. It's And my body knows that my leg is there. Now, by this point in my life, I have worked really hard to separate my leg from my body or separate my leg from myself because that's what that's what our society that's what society and the way that we talk about ourselves.
 
 teaches us is that there is this separation between self and body and body parts. But my body, my nervous system knows that it is all contained and connected. And, you know, so from that very literal sense, the Alexander technique reminds us of that, that that's something that we were born with, that it's our birthright, that we are one contained unit.
 
 that is mind, body, parts, spirit. We could get huge with this, it's the mental, the physical, the energetic, the etheric, all of it. It's all one thing. And we have words for head, arm, hand, but those are simply so that we can identify these things and talk about them, but they don't mean that they are then separate.
 
 And you know, when you say, you know, that we're taught that the instrument is somehow separate, well, Alexander technique teaches us that the instrument becomes a part of ourselves. And as soon as we touch it, it's a part of ourselves. Quite literally, the nervous system doesn't know where the body ends and the instrument begins when the instrument is in our hands. It's all
 
 Shawn L Copeland (28:13.558)
 the instrument becomes a part of us. pick up your trumpet, your nervous system extends to the tip of the trumpet and knows exactly where it's at. So it through, at least in my experience, through learning about the technique and the information that I learned about as my knowledge of the technique extended and expanded, it gave me the language that I needed to reconnect all of these pieces.
 
 yeah. And to teach that level of connection for other people. That's right. Well, and the thing that excites me so much about embodied pedagogy is this ability to be able, as far as I can tell, first time in music schools, to really get it away from the like, how to operate something like the operation manual. And now we're talking about integration. I think
 
 maybe the vocalists have been able to do that forever just to the nature of the fact that their voice is here. when I listen to, sorry, can you hear that? When I check out vocal lessons, I often notice how different they are from the way a pianist or a cellist or something is learning. I really appreciate those things. But even still, to be able to name it, to be able to talk about it.
 
 Karen Cubides (29:19.103)
 Okay.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (29:40.14)
 the idea of embodying this work as opposed to keeping it all separate is ultimately messaging to the student that this is what is of value when we start to use those words that we can talk about these differences, that we're not just
 
 looking at how fast you can play it, how loud you can play it, all the external variables, but that we're really talking about is artistry. And we're talking about you. Yeah, you as the artist. You as the artist. And we're placing, probably for the first time, we're placing value and worth 100 % on that. That's right. I don't know of any other place where I've seen that.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (30:36.214)
 That is the component of value and that's what we're trying to cultivate. To the point of the whole conversation, without that, you don't have artistry. don't have that. like, yeah, sure, you might be able to find some of that later as you get older and you just kind of, people start, especially as you age, you start to put those things together, but it is not codified in our schools. And it's the thing we spend the least amount of time on. If at all. Yeah.
 
 Karen Cubides (31:04.987)
 Amazing. Sean, there's a thread I want to pull from something you said, but I need to go back to Brian first and then we'll go back to you. Brian, I'm curious with everything that both of you are saying, what changes have you noticed in your faculty with even just being exposed to this material? Because historically, have overloaded faculty, exhausted. The academic year can be very stressful.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (31:05.624)
 Cool.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (31:28.482)
 Well, let's back up before he answers that. Let's unpack what's happening here first. good idea. Because I don't know that our listening viewers. We should have started with that in Do you call them listening viewers? Those who are listening, I don't know that they know what's happening here at the University of Houston. So that conversation began February year and a half ago. Yeah, I suppose. So essentially, in a nutshell,
 
 I am investing in four of our faculty members, five really, of our faculty members to become certified and trained in body mapping with Sean. And the program that Sean has put together is unique for many ways, it mostly focused on, mostly because it's focused on the teaching of teachers and what it means to be able to create a pathway.
 
 for the teachers, students to be able to be exposed and to be able to learn about embodied pedagogy. In many ways, I think that's super unique because everything I've done up to this point, it's all been about me. And then anything I'm able to like pass on to my students has been kind of through osmosis, right? But this is a dedicated program for training folks who are
 
 working in one-on-one situations with others. So I think it's exceptionally valuable, exceptionally rare. And this is an experiment. This is a pilot program, and we kicked it off fall of last year. It is not exceptionally unique. It is plain and simply unique. This is the only place in the world where this is happening. So we're a year in now. We're not done. I have no idea what the long-term effect will be.
 
 I have, I have hopes. We have lots of hopes. I made a deal with the faculty that they are, they have to talk about this. I have to write about it. They have to get it out there, talk about their experiences, find ways to bring that in. That was a condition of, of the, of, of joining the program. Cause you know, it's so easy to have your own individual thing and then just let it not spread from there. Right? So I want to make sure that it's something that can spread throughout the school.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (33:56.576)
 and then beyond. What... So coming back to Karen's original question, what changes have you seen from them over the past year? Difficult to know because I got here at the same time. Good point. I don't know these folks. I've only been here... Well, I met them same time you did basically, and I'm getting to know them. However, I will say that that cohort...
 
 Karen Cubides (33:59.277)
 And, yeah, go ahead, John.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (34:25.72)
 were the ones that were kind of naturally attracted to this. As we were talking yesterday, I was kind of surprised. I don't know that would have been able to pick which ones would have emerged as interested. So that was kind of cool. And I would imagine that being the case if you were to take the same program to another institution. I don't know that you would, it'd be hard to predict, I think, who would be interested.
 
 I think I can share a little bit because I've watched their progression over the last year. You've seen it way closer. The information.
 
 What I think has happened here is something that I didn't and could not have anticipated.
 
 Those who are teaching with this, have taken the concepts and turned it into something uniquely their own. And they're using it in a way that, at least to my knowledge, it hasn't been used in the past. Let me give you an example. So if something comes up and we're going to use body mapping,
 
 and we're in a music lesson, the lesson almost turns into a biology lesson or an anatomy lesson. We pull out the skeleton, we pull out some models, we talk about the bones, we talk, and we do this huge deep dive into the wrist or the elbow or the shoulder. And 20 minutes later, we go, well, now let's come back to the piano. What I have seen the faculty here do
 
 Shawn L Copeland (36:18.272)
 is never leave the piano, never leave music, just to find the slightest thread that needs to be introduced that brings the focus on how they're using their body and what they're doing. And they're finding the least amount of anatomical information to have the greatest impact. And it never loses the overall shape of it being a piano lesson or a violin lesson or a voice lesson.
 
 So we're getting a huge impact without shifting gears. Right, without it even being that obvious to the students or any of that. Exactly, exactly. So it's becoming a tool, an integrated tool and information in the very same way that someone might go, well, now historically, is that the typical way that we would articulate in that time era, the way that we would use
 
 Theoretical and from you know music theory or historical information in a music lesson in a teaching lesson now We've somehow added anatomical information without without losing What it is that we're doing here well and to that end I see This is in many ways becoming new language for everyone in in a one-on-one situation. Yeah, I really do
 
 And I think, you know, this is a pilot in this area, but this is how it starts, right? And like, it's a language, it's a skill set, it's a knowledge base, but I just am convinced, and I've been bugging him for years, convinced that this is one of the things that will transform higher education for music schools. And probably others, right? Any performing arts kind of thing. I really believe that
 
 it will catch on in a way that becomes common knowledge. I have no doubt. It's just a matter of time and someone like Sean to connect those dots. I see it.
 
 Karen Cubides (38:30.191)
 Yeah, for sure. And Sean, to put you in the spot, but I just want to dig a little bit deeper to this actual question because I feel like even being in your space, even being adjacent to us collaborating together, whoever's in your space has changed by just your presence, your energy, your ability to touch and move things around in such a unique way. I'm curious, on a deeper level, what changes have you noticed in this faculty's perhaps confidence or ability to communicate or?
 
 Just even posture, because I think a lot of these conversations are things you can't unhear. The conversation around safety, the conversation around belonging, vulnerability in the arts, even trauma without fully going there. What changes have you physically noticed? For somebody listening who's like, yeah, this sounds great for you guys in your budget, but what about us normal people? What else can you expect?
 
 Shawn L Copeland (39:20.002)
 Hmm.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (39:25.824)
 I think what's been interesting is that with the four teachers that are working here with me, we've had, I mean, they're in four very distinct different areas and they've each uniquely incorporated the material into their own experience. It hasn't been the same.
 
 It's been an individual experience for each one of them and a different experience for each one of them.
 
 And each of them, I don't like to use this word, but each of them have bought in from a different angle in the work.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (40:16.642)
 But I think, and I have changed as a part of this process. And this process has been tremendously valuable for me to give me the opportunity to codify my own pedagogy in the training of teachers around this. And sidebar, I'm working with people who are full-time faculty members who have performance schedules and teaching schedules.
 
 You know, and they're all tenure track and overworked just like the rest of us are, you know, and here I am handing them a 500 page manual and saying, you need to memorize every bit of this information about the body. And then I had to go, no, actually you don't. What you need to do is start asking questions and start looking at teaching from a whole different perspective.
 
 and from a whole perspective as opposed to the perspective of your small little window into what it is that you do and how they're doing it. And that's really what's been changing. right. And we're seeing changes that happen in the very first lesson that I had with a student last September. And then I come back.
 
 in November and then I come back in February and in April and the teachers are saying to me, yeah, that one change is still rippling all the way through and it continues to evolve and they are able to monitor it. They're able to track it. Their own observational skills are developing and they're becoming different teachers.
 
 not better teachers, just different teachers. They're already stellar. But they're adding tools to their belt in this sense. Yeah, and in that sense, it's not the content, it's the mindset. And the process. Yeah, process, that's a good way to put it. And the mindset leads to the process, which leads to the content. But you don't start with the content, right? You don't memorize this 500-page book. That won't.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (42:40.276)
 out of context won't really make you a master teacher. But what will is being able to be present, ask those questions and maybe consider how that might, you know, impact the rest of that student's experience. So to me, it's like, it's central to, you know, the big questions of why we do music, what we're doing this for. What's my relationship?
 
 to my instrument, what's my intentionality between the sounds coming out and what I'm trying to say? How can I use this to say something about me or my observations of the world, which is the whole idea of being an artist anyway, right? To illuminate the human experience. So it seems to me that it's a huge step in that direction and it changes the intentionality.
 
 of music study.
 
 To go even deeper with this, I can give you some examples of things that have been discovered here that I think will really answer what you're asking. Without giving any disclosure, I'm just going to kind of not even talk about the actual instrument. But we're discovering things like if you're trying to get volume out of the instrument without thinking in this realm, one might look at
 
 you know, well, how, how are you actually playing the instrument? And now what we're discovering is that the lack of volume is becoming, is coming from a lack of connection to a grounded sense of self. And when the student finds the ground and their connection to the ground through their feet and through their sit bones, through the chair or the bench or whatever it is that they're sitting on,
 
 Shawn L Copeland (44:39.466)
 then they connect to a much deeper sense of power that they can then operate the instrument in that way. We're finding, you you've brought up the big T word, you've brought up trauma. We're finding that the way that a student plays their instrument now is based on traumatic events that have happened 20 years ago when they started playing the instrument at four years old.
 
 and their relationship to their first teacher. And we're able to unlock their full potential now by connecting the dots back in time and being able to let go of that so that they can become fully realized now instead of continuing the same things that were happening when they were four years old and
 
 perpetuating that trauma and just and and it's not therapy. It's just going Hey, that's connected to this. I don't need that anymore poof. It's gone You know, it's it's we've talked about this many times that we're very clearly in the line of teaching and education We're not crossing over into processing and unpacking trauma, right? but as as educators and as
 
 Music artists Trauma is going to be in the room. in there. Yeah, you know you you give me a person who hasn't experienced trauma by this point in their life and You know, we should celebrate that because I don't think any of us are that lucky, you know But you know again just to kind of put this out there and we'll talk about this in some podcasts coming up There's a difference between something that's Trauma and something that's traumatic, right? good
 
 We experience trauma every day. Trauma is just simply your nervous system being overwhelmed and not being able to name the experience. But that doesn't necessarily mean it becomes traumatic for you. And that's something we need to as another thing to come back to in another episode. But we're seeing amazing transformation in both the people who are using this
 
 Karen Cubides (46:51.898)
 Yeah.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (47:05.504)
 this work and the students who are a part of it. And what's amazing is I came here for the first time last September, I think, a year ago, and there was the traditional thing or the thing that always happens. I don't know how you're seeing this. don't know how am I ever going to be able to see and do what you do, Sean. And then I come back two months later.
 
 And everybody's going, and I'm going, look at what you're doing now. You thought you wouldn't be able to do this. we talked about this last night. You enter into the process, you agree to the process, and you use the technique. And so this is both content and process at the same time.
 
 And when you you enter into it, the work takes care of itself. It happens. You start asking questions and you get more information. And both the student and the teacher are now armed with more information. We can do more with that. And now, but now we've also made space for the whole person to be in the room. And it's not just the whole student, it's the whole teacher as well. That's right. That's a good way to put it.
 
 Because now there's space for both human beings to show up. And the teacher gets to be a human being and not just the teacher. I don't have to just teach piano, I get to teach you about how to be a human. There's a saying in higher ed a lot where they're talking about transactional versus transformative learning. And there's so many different layers to that, right? It could come down to like,
 
 paying for credits that just lead to graduate. And it's like very transactional, right? But what I think what all these, what we try to do in music is actually transform. Taking someone through that, the whole process, dealing with our traumas and being able to kind of emerge an actually productive artist on the other side. This to your point,
 
 Shawn L Copeland (49:29.528)
 allows that to happen in a very meaningful way that I think you go as far as to say if you're not able to feel that sense of belonging, if you're not able to become embodied in a certain sense, it's almost impossible to get past the transactional in any given lesson or anything. mean, we're all guilty of it. We're tired. We're just cranking these out. And all of sudden, you're just kind of in the rote of do it again, do it like this. But it's when you see that other person
 
 that for me I get energized back, I get switched on, I'm invested in what I can do to help them through whatever issues they're working on musically. But it's not through the technique of the instrument, it's through seeing the individual in front of us.
 
 Yeah, that's the difference.
 
 Karen Cubides (50:23.599)
 I love that. So Sean, I said I would go back and pull a thread. I feel like this is gonna be another episode, but I just kind of wanted to make a connection based on what both of you said. So going back to like your nervous system and you know, in Spanish, tocar is you know, to touch and then play and all these different, you know, inherent biases and perceptions into which we come into music, cultures, et cetera. And you you're talking about...
 
 this becoming a part of you and we have the connection with the nervous system and then also what you said around the difference between trauma and traumatic. I'm curious because I feel like injury is like one of the biggest topics on the forefront of educators minds. What is that connection and how does this work? Give us language, not only to not freak out about it, but also to make a plan and move forward and essentially heal.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (51:19.512)
 Hmm. What exactly are you asking?
 
 Karen Cubides (51:26.415)
 Well, just, I always think about like, who's listening to this, you know? And as I'm sitting here as an educator and I'm like, okay, yeah, all of this sounds great. I like this. I want this for me. And also injury is such a big conversation. I don't have the language for it. This isn't necessarily advertised as a cure for injury and stuff, but how can I support my students and or help myself?
 
 Shawn L Copeland (51:37.538)
 Okay.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (51:47.48)
 I think that that.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (51:53.585)
 One of the pieces of this that...
 
 that I have learned through somatic work and bringing somatic work into arts education has been that every person's body is unique and it's unique to them and that there is no right and there is no wrong in someone's body. It just is.
 
 And like that right there is a mic drop. Cause you really need to sit with that and let that echo back and back and back and back. because it means there is no right technique. There is no right hand position. There is no right shoulder rest. There's no right thumb rest. There's no right neck strap. There's no right embouchure.
 
 They're all valid as long as they work. And where the injury piece comes from or comes into this is that most people get injured because they are trying to be or do something that is not right for their body. They are trying, they're living in the expectation.
 
 that others have for them as opposed to their own authentic way of being. A four foot seven female is not going to be able to produce the same sound on a piano as a six foot two male. It's just not possible. But a four foot seven female will hurt themselves.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (54:00.172)
 by trying to do that. But if we understand that there's a uniqueness to this that we can own and that we don't need to feel shame around, then it becomes, this is the volume that I'm able to create. And I have my own dynamic spectrum that is unique to me and my...
 
 my ability in my body, you know, that I don't need to feel shame around. And I can own it. And I can and and I can feel good about that. that will knowing that from the very beginning, both from a teaching perspective and from a I'm a student of this will help me preserve my own
 
 integrity within the tissues of my body. You know, and that is both from a creative perspective, but it also means like, you know, Jackie and I talk about this in our the clarinet book that Jackie plays with a thumb rest that is specifically designed for someone who has a hitchhiker thumb and laxicity in the joints around their thumb, whereas I play with an x-strap. And both of those things are equally valid.
 
 And we need to stop in the clarinet world, we need to stop shaming people around using thumb rests and stands and things that we need to use to support the instrument because the thumb is not designed to support something that weighs as heavy as the clarinet. It's just not. And 200 years ago when the clarinet was designed, the instrument was made out of boxwood. It weighed less than a pound.
 
 Now it's made out of the most dense wood on the planet. But the thumb rest hasn't changed in 200 years, except that we decided that we are gonna make it adjustable. But its position on the instrument hasn't changed. We're not evolving in that way. our thinking, we still shame people around this. I had a student come in, a couple...
 
 Shawn L Copeland (56:25.396)
 months ago who was an oboe player and was playing with an extract and they were their whole point of the lesson was to try and stop using an extract because some teacher had told them if you show up for an audition with an orchestra with an extract you'll be excused. They won't let you audition. And I.
 
 I didn't know what to say to that, like other than cry with them. I was so angry. I'm like, that's not helping anyone. I'm gonna stop talking now. I was just gonna reflect on it. I and I guess Karen, I'll say this conversation actually I find a little bit triggering in general in this space, in this conversation, the injury components, because I've been involved with
 
 the higher ed conversation nationally for a while now. And when you say, when people talk about what it means to have a discussion about musicians health, most of the time what they're talking about is recovering from previous injuries. And how do I deal with my carpal tunnel? Often what that conversation ends up being or a vocalist dealing with that a lot. It's after they're hurt and after they're right. And I guess,
 
 to me, it's, I mean, I don't mean to diminish the importance of that conversation, but what we're talking about here with embodiment and with belonging, to Sean's point, is more, it's central and fundamental to the whole idea of the human and being self-aware enough to not get injured in the first place.
 
 because I think that the trajectory you just described is 100%. It's when we're forcing something to happen that isn't right for our own body most of the time, right? So to me, I think there's a tendency to wanna see maybe Alexander or maybe even the whole embodiment thing as a kind of a solution to just an injury kind of prevention or injury kind of repair. But I guess to me, that's a...
 
 Shawn L Copeland (58:43.772)
 side benefit in many sense, don't mean distracting in some ways to the bigger part of the conversation of what it means to be in belonging and embodied as a performer. You're right. I mean, you're right on target with what we've been talking about. We've that we, maybe two episodes ago, we're talking about that Alexander Technique is
 
 traditionally been and body mapping is traditionally been marketed as injury prevention and injury recovery. Has it? Yes. I intuitively, I see that but I think it's the biggest flaw. I agree. And and it's why we can't sell it. It's distracting to its fundamental thing. It's distract because we're talking now that we're really talking about how and with these techniques, how we can become better artists. It's not even injury prevention.
 
 we're getting so far in front of it that we can't even really say that this is injury prevention. It's about becoming a better artist and a better human being. And when all of those things are in place...
 
 We don't need to talk about injury prevention because we're taking care of ourselves in the process of you know, and and self-care Is part of the process. Yeah, and in that sense, it's embedded within that conversation Yeah, right the self-care and all these things, but it's all embedded but it's not It's missing the point It's not forefront. It's not the point. It's not the purpose. It's not the point. Yeah Does that make sense maybe
 
 Karen Cubides (01:00:20.719)
 Yeah, absolutely.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (01:00:23.818)
 It's hard to get there. think most of my most of my time, I'd say 90 % of my teaching has been around helping people recover and can and prevent future injury. And, you know, this is this is something that I'm I'm working right now in my on with my training cohorts and talking pretty, pretty extensively in a greater sense in the greater Alexander audience that
 
 What does teaching this work look like when you're not correcting and revising previous teaching? You know what the exciting thing is here that I'm starting to see along this line is that in the general conversation out there, there's an increased awareness and understanding of the mind-body connection. This is
 
 something that I mean, people talk about thousands of years, but I see now when when say institutions like the University of Houston is talking about health. It's not just physical health, the way it feels like it used to be, you know, the the external physical things of exercise and nutrition, but we're also talking now about mental health and emotional health and emotional intelligence in a way that's synonymous with what it means to be healthy.
 
 I think that that alone is bringing this conversation together in brilliant ways that I see as part of what will become the ultimate tipping point for when people start to realize across academia that this is not just a tool set, but an essential one.
 
 I mean, within our lifetimes, was like, we didn't talk about mental health in college. no. Never. my God. No. We just didn't talk about it. And now we talk about it all the time. Almost to the detriment of content. Well, 100%. Yeah. But I mean, that's part of process of doing this. But I see this stuff. But this is the shift that we, I think the episode that just came out was on talking about
 
 Karen Cubides (01:02:23.355)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (01:02:40.5)
 shifting the conversation around performance anxiety in terms of prevention to acceptance and understanding like this is what my nervous system is supposed to do and I need to understand that and work within how it's functioning as opposed to preventing it from functioning in the way that it's functioning. So acceptance, surrender,
 
 incorporation learning learning that it can essentially be your superpower if You know how to direct it and intend it. Mm-hmm so now we're circling back to bringing the word intention in and you know and just having more information You know, and then that gives us more tools more More things become available to us
 
 Karen Cubides (01:03:39.621)
 Yeah, I.
 
 think this is a great place to stop, Brian. I want to be respectful of your time. But yeah, I think this is such a helpful and important conversation and I appreciate both of your perspectives. And I also think that having the opportunity to share this information and it's so powerful, you can't unhear it. And I almost see this work of embodied belonging and performing and all of that and learning as an opportunity and a permission grantor to slow down and really challenge that status quo. Because we haven't even gotten into the systemic issues,
 
 access issues, all the things that are around this particular subject and the lack of availability and resources. But yes, I am grateful, Sean, for your work and Brian and the opportunity to bring this into academia because this is so necessary. And even as I was in school 10 years ago at a conservatory and yeah, this was not a part of the conversation. I just can't imagine how much more richer my experience would have been had I known some of this stuff. So thank you both for that.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (01:04:37.656)
 I would actually love to go digging into some of that with you soon, right? All the pieces you just outlined with access, with systems, with all of those pieces. I don't feel like we even touched on that, but there's so many different ways in which we can try to figure out how we're gonna accomplish this. We're really talking about the why, right? And maybe a little of the what, like what we kind of.
 
 Karen Cubides (01:04:43.323)
 You
 
 Shawn L Copeland (01:05:07.404)
 experiment with, but there's so many more pieces to the how we do this that it'd be a great conversation for the future. Part two is coming. Part two. Nice to meet you, Karen.
 
 Karen Cubides (01:05:15.567)
 Yeah, for sure. We have to have you back.
 
 Karen Cubides (01:05:21.295)
 Yeah, nice to meet you, Brian. Thanks for being here.
 
 Shawn L Copeland (01:05:22.902)
 Let me thank you both for being here with me. as always, like we always say, DM us if you have questions. Now that you know that there's going to be a part two, if there's particular questions that you definitely want us to dive into, send us a message and we'll definitely put that on the list. like us, subscribe, all of those things. So thank you so much.